{"id":50505,"date":"2026-01-15T16:14:44","date_gmt":"2026-01-15T21:14:44","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/?p=50505"},"modified":"2026-01-15T16:14:53","modified_gmt":"2026-01-15T21:14:53","slug":"the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science-to-leadership-and-supervision-session-321-with-john-guercio","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/be_obs\/the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science-to-leadership-and-supervision-session-321-with-john-guercio","title":{"rendered":"The Four Leadership Hats: Applying Behavioral Science to Leadership and Supervision \u2014 Session 321 with John Guercio"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Embed Player\" src=\"https:\/\/play.libsyn.com\/embed\/episode\/id\/39750410\/height\/128\/theme\/modern\/size\/standard\/thumbnail\/yes\/custom-color\/233d61\/time-start\/00:00:00\/playlist-height\/200\/direction\/backward\/download\/yes\/font-color\/FFFFFF\" height=\"128\" width=\"100%\" scrolling=\"no\" allowfullscreen=\"\" webkitallowfullscreen=\"true\" mozallowfullscreen=\"true\" oallowfullscreen=\"true\" msallowfullscreen=\"true\" style=\"border: none;\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Listen on: <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science\/id1086413253?i=1000745340526\">Apple Podcasts<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/4un43FTJ2WDP7t0HBzFk4q?si=yw3ty6KgTPCz7jdqXcJiSA\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/AD8_IEGDWgY?si=ELRB4xu4QcgBoM4u\">YouTube<\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">In this episode, I\u2019m joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about <strong>leadership through a behavioral lens<\/strong>. John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic, or disconnected from observable behavior.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We start by talking about the need to <strong>operationalize leadership<\/strong> in behavioral terms and explore the <strong>four leadership hats<\/strong> developed by <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/paul-paulie-gavoni-ed-d-bcba-d-60600843\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dr. Paulie Gavoni<\/a>: leading, training, coaching, and managing. We break down what each of these roles looks like behaviorally, how they function across time, and why effective leaders need to move flexibly between them rather than relying on a single style.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">A major theme of the episode is the role of <strong>positive reinforcement in leadership<\/strong>. John shares real-world examples from his OBM coursework and his work at Cornerstone Behavioral Services, highlighting how difficult\u2014but necessary\u2014it can be to shift away from punitive and avoidance-based management strategies. We discuss why punishment often \u201cworks\u201d in the short term, why leaders continue to rely on it, and how reinforcement-based leadership creates better outcomes for both staff and organizations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We also spend time unpacking the distinction between <strong>leadership and management<\/strong>. John reflects on his own strengths and limitations, describing how he focuses on vision and direction while intentionally surrounding himself with strong managers who excel at systems, logistics, and follow-through. This leads to a powerful discussion about positional authority, seniority, and the myth that leadership status entitles people to treat others poorly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Throughout the episode, we return to the importance of <strong>psychological safety<\/strong>, consistent feedback, and emotional regulation in leadership roles. John shares practical strategies for navigating tough conversations, including how to balance empathy with accountability, how to manage staff expectations, and how to avoid letting emotion drive professional communication (including when <em>not<\/em> to send that email).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We also talk through concrete tools and exercises for improving leadership practice, such as symbolic problem-solving activities to surface unspoken team issues, written acknowledgment systems, and using assessment tools like the Performance Diagnostic Checklist to guide supervision and coaching. John closes by sharing future directions for developing <strong>empirically grounded management assessment tools<\/strong>, along with a preview of his upcoming work and conference presentations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">This is a practical, honest conversation for anyone supervising staff, leading teams, or trying to build reinforcing, values-consistent organizations in human services.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Resources &amp; Links Mentioned in This Episode<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/abacnj.com\/bttrainings-courses-ce\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>RBT Course<\/strong><\/a><strong> for Adult Services (the 'bridge' course too!)<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.sciencedirect.com\/science\/article\/abs\/pii\/0030507375900409?via%3Dihub\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>Sims and Szilagyi (1975)<\/strong><\/a><strong>. <\/strong>Leader reward behavior and subordinate satisfaction and performance<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><strong>Stone Soup Conference <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/behaviorlive.com\/conferences\/Stonesoup2026\/home\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>Registration<\/strong><\/a><strong> (use code PODCAST26 at checkout)<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/articles\/PMC4788645\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>Carr and Wilder (2015)<\/strong><\/a><strong>. The Performance Diagnostic Checklist\u2014Human Services<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><strong>John's <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/?s=guercio\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>previous BOP<\/strong><\/a><strong> appearances<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/downloads\/session-274-psychological-safety-in-the-workplace-supervision\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Session 274<\/a>: Psychological Safety in the Workplace (Supervision CEU!)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Additional Books, Articles, and Ideas Discussed<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/49ojict\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">John's books<\/a> on Amazon<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/4jMgycw\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Komaki (1998)<\/a>. Leadership from an Operant Perspective<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/49UZAoI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">McGregor (1960)<\/a>. The Human Side of Enterprise<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/4qRLNoD\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Daniels and Daniels (2023)<\/a>. The Measure of a Leader<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/4pDaIeA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Elliot (2012)<\/a>. Leading Apple With Steve Jobs: Management Lessons From a Controversial Genius<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/49BixeV\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Covey (2020)<\/a>. The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, 30th Anniversary Edition<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/45ef2K5\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Harley (2013)<\/a>. How to Say Anything to Anyone<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/4sHs5gW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Grenny et al. (2021)<\/a>. Crucial Conversations (Third Edition): Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Sponsor shoutouts!<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/officepuzzle.com\/bop\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Office Puzzle<\/a>: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you\u2019ve struggled with software that\u2019s buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you\u2019re not alone. That\u2019s why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to <a href=\"https:\/\/officepuzzle.com\/bop\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">officepuzzle.com\/bop<\/a> to learn more!<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.hricolorado.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">HRIC Recruting<\/a>. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/behaviorlive.com\/conferences\/Stonesoup2026\/home\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The 2026 Stone Soup Conference!<\/a> This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/behavioruniversity.com\/observations\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>Behavior University<\/strong><\/a><strong>.<\/strong>\u00a0Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/behavioruniversity.com\/bcba-supervisor-training\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">8-hour Supervision Course<\/a>, as well as their\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/behavioruniversity.com\/rbt-online\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">RBT offerings<\/a>\u00a0over at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/behavioruniversity.com\/observations.\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong><em>behavioruniversity.com\/observations.<\/em><\/strong><\/a>\u00a0Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/behaviorlive.com\/conferences\/vbc\/home\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference!<\/a> Taking place March 26\u201327, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner\u2019s analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don\u2019t miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/get-ceus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">CEUs from Behavioral Observations<\/a>. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/get-ceus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here<\/a>.\u00a0<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Listen on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube In this episode, I\u2019m joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about leadership through a behavioral lens. John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic,&#8230;  <a class=\"excerpt-read-more\" href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/be_obs\/the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science-to-leadership-and-supervision-session-321-with-john-guercio\" title=\"Read The Four Leadership Hats: Applying Behavioral Science to Leadership and Supervision \u2014 Session 321 with John Guercio\">Read more &raquo;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":50504,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"nf_dc_page":"","ghostkit_customizer_options":"","ghostkit_custom_css":"","ghostkit_custom_js_head":"","ghostkit_custom_js_foot":"","ghostkit_typography":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":"","_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[191,256,15,611,28],"class_list":["post-50505","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcasts","tag-john-michael-guercio","tag-leadership","tag-obm","tag-psychological-safety","tag-supervision","page-entry"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>The Four Leadership Hats: Applying Behavioral Science to Leadership and Supervision \u2014 Session 321 with John Guercio - The Behavioral Observations Podcast<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/be_obs\/the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science-to-leadership-and-supervision-session-321-with-john-guercio\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"The Four Leadership Hats: Applying Behavioral Science to Leadership and Supervision \u2014 Session 321 with John Guercio - The Behavioral Observations Podcast\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Listen on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube In this episode, I\u2019m joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about leadership through a behavioral lens. John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic,... Read more &raquo;\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/be_obs\/the-four-leadership-hats-applying-behavioral-science-to-leadership-and-supervision-session-321-with-john-guercio\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"The Behavioral Observations Podcast\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2026-01-15T21:14:44+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2026-01-15T21:14:53+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/behavioralobservations.com\/be_obs\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/01\/The-Four-Leadership-Hats-Applying-Behavioral-Science-to-Leadership-and-Supervision-1024x1024.png\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1024\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"1024\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Matt Cicoria\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" 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John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic,... 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